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	<title>Comments on: Infineon / ST Mesh Comparison</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.flylogic.net/blog/?feed=rss2&#038;p=86" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.flylogic.net/blog/?p=86</link>
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	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 06 Sep 2010 15:28:41 -0700</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: joe</title>
		<link>http://www.flylogic.net/blog/?p=86&#038;cpage=1#comment-1680</link>
		<dc:creator>joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Apr 2010 04:16:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.flylogic.net/blog/?p=86#comment-1680</guid>
		<description>the ST mesh is allot easier, i believe u can jump mesh to vdd or any 3.3 v source and then etch over bus lines and probe each one on start up with a logic analyzer. the Infineon design is by far superior cause of the random spacing and is why the chip has remained secure (well atleast until u got to play with it lol nice job)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the ST mesh is allot easier, i believe u can jump mesh to vdd or any 3.3 v source and then etch over bus lines and probe each one on start up with a logic analyzer. the Infineon design is by far superior cause of the random spacing and is why the chip has remained secure (well atleast until u got to play with it lol nice job)</p>
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		<title>By: Francois</title>
		<link>http://www.flylogic.net/blog/?p=86&#038;cpage=1#comment-1675</link>
		<dc:creator>Francois</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Apr 2010 20:35:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.flylogic.net/blog/?p=86#comment-1675</guid>
		<description>Bonjour! Good Blog. But here only Infineon and STM is showed. What is about others,,, I just see the NXP chip at your page (Safenet iKey 2032) and they even have no mesh! Now NXP say that you cannot hack them: In newspaper interview a NXP guy named Steve Owen says &quot;with our chip hacking would not be possible.&quot; Dont they understand your skils or do they have extra protection in the chip? Are NXP chips realy unhackable??</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bonjour! Good Blog. But here only Infineon and STM is showed. What is about others,,, I just see the NXP chip at your page (Safenet iKey 2032) and they even have no mesh! Now NXP say that you cannot hack them: In newspaper interview a NXP guy named Steve Owen says &#8220;with our chip hacking would not be possible.&#8221; Dont they understand your skils or do they have extra protection in the chip? Are NXP chips realy unhackable??</p>
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		<title>By: Francois</title>
		<link>http://www.flylogic.net/blog/?p=86&#038;cpage=1#comment-1672</link>
		<dc:creator>Francois</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Apr 2010 18:12:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.flylogic.net/blog/?p=86#comment-1672</guid>
		<description>Bonjour! 
Here only Infineon and STM is showed. What is about others,,,
I just see the NXP chip at your page (Safenet iKey 2032) and they even have no mesh! 
Now NXP say that you cannot hack them: In newspaper interview a NXP guy named Steve Owen says &quot;with our chip hacking would not be possible.&quot; 
Dont they understand your skils or do they have extra protection in the chip? 
Are NXP chips realy unhackable??</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bonjour!<br />
Here only Infineon and STM is showed. What is about others,,,<br />
I just see the NXP chip at your page (Safenet iKey 2032) and they even have no mesh!<br />
Now NXP say that you cannot hack them: In newspaper interview a NXP guy named Steve Owen says &#8220;with our chip hacking would not be possible.&#8221;<br />
Dont they understand your skils or do they have extra protection in the chip?<br />
Are NXP chips realy unhackable??</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.flylogic.net/blog/?p=86&#038;cpage=1#comment-1665</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Mar 2010 12:26:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.flylogic.net/blog/?p=86#comment-1665</guid>
		<description>What would be the characteristics of an ultimate mesh
and do you think there are better smart cards out of the
 market than Infineon or ST ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What would be the characteristics of an ultimate mesh<br />
and do you think there are better smart cards out of the<br />
 market than Infineon or ST ?</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://www.flylogic.net/blog/?p=86&#038;cpage=1#comment-1643</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 00:52:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.flylogic.net/blog/?p=86#comment-1643</guid>
		<description>Thanks for continuing this blog, I love reading it.

As you have a FIB / wirebonder, it’s probably quite easy for you to fix the Infineon mesh, if there are no connections from the middle of the mesh in down into the chip.
With a little help from the FIB / wirebonder you can simply bridge all green, blue, violet and yellow lines at the edge of the chip and then chemically dissolve / plasma etch the lines in the middle of the chip and then micro probe it. 

The ST mesh looks meaner, but not impossible, especially if there are several chips available for analysis, and you can so you can which points of the red line are connected have connections into the chip and which are irrelevant. Then it should be possible to wirebond the interesting lines to Vcc.

BTW, is it possible to look through the protection mesh with high acceleration voltage? If the wires are made of aluminum (low atom number, high penetration depth) and the isolation made of SiO2 (also low atom number), then the electron beam with say 30keV (as in the picture) could perhaps have enough penetration depth to reach the layer below?!

 If it does so, you could probably be able to have a limited vision through the top layer by using a backscatter / EDX detector, as the backscattered electrons / X-Rays have more energy and thus a limited ability to reach the detector through a few 100 nm of material. 

But I know that it’s hard to distinguish between Al, Si and SiO2 in a Backscatter-SEM picture (little material contrast, because atom number are similar), so it might be be hard/impossible to get a good picture.

Secondary electrons are only able to penetrate a few nm of material, so SEs created inside the sample don’t reach the detector. Because of that you get sharper pictures by using a SE detector.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for continuing this blog, I love reading it.</p>
<p>As you have a FIB / wirebonder, it’s probably quite easy for you to fix the Infineon mesh, if there are no connections from the middle of the mesh in down into the chip.<br />
With a little help from the FIB / wirebonder you can simply bridge all green, blue, violet and yellow lines at the edge of the chip and then chemically dissolve / plasma etch the lines in the middle of the chip and then micro probe it. </p>
<p>The ST mesh looks meaner, but not impossible, especially if there are several chips available for analysis, and you can so you can which points of the red line are connected have connections into the chip and which are irrelevant. Then it should be possible to wirebond the interesting lines to Vcc.</p>
<p>BTW, is it possible to look through the protection mesh with high acceleration voltage? If the wires are made of aluminum (low atom number, high penetration depth) and the isolation made of SiO2 (also low atom number), then the electron beam with say 30keV (as in the picture) could perhaps have enough penetration depth to reach the layer below?!</p>
<p> If it does so, you could probably be able to have a limited vision through the top layer by using a backscatter / EDX detector, as the backscattered electrons / X-Rays have more energy and thus a limited ability to reach the detector through a few 100 nm of material. </p>
<p>But I know that it’s hard to distinguish between Al, Si and SiO2 in a Backscatter-SEM picture (little material contrast, because atom number are similar), so it might be be hard/impossible to get a good picture.</p>
<p>Secondary electrons are only able to penetrate a few nm of material, so SEs created inside the sample don’t reach the detector. Because of that you get sharper pictures by using a SE detector.</p>
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		<title>By: 20100223y</title>
		<link>http://www.flylogic.net/blog/?p=86&#038;cpage=1#comment-1615</link>
		<dc:creator>20100223y</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:10:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.flylogic.net/blog/?p=86#comment-1615</guid>
		<description>Infineon&#039;s design is obviously better, as you mentioned...

&#039;Infineon does not permanently penalize you if the mesh is not properly repaired and the device is powered up.&#039;

I think it is the reason that the OS in the chip haven&#039;t set the correlative SFR which is implemented to control the mesh operation.

Is there the OS inside the chip?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Infineon&#8217;s design is obviously better, as you mentioned&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8216;Infineon does not permanently penalize you if the mesh is not properly repaired and the device is powered up.&#8217;</p>
<p>I think it is the reason that the OS in the chip haven&#8217;t set the correlative SFR which is implemented to control the mesh operation.</p>
<p>Is there the OS inside the chip?</p>
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		<title>By: w5vo</title>
		<link>http://www.flylogic.net/blog/?p=86&#038;cpage=1#comment-1613</link>
		<dc:creator>w5vo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 07:53:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.flylogic.net/blog/?p=86#comment-1613</guid>
		<description>I find it interesting that Infineon invested in a higher density top metal as a way to increase security. They&#039;re really going after a very small separation between tracks at about 0.4 microns. I&#039;ll bet the width of the wires is triple the space to make it more difficult to see between the wires. How easy is it to tell which wire belongs to which net? Are the wires regularly toggled, like with a random sequence?

The ST top metal I&#039;m guessing has a pitch of about 1.4 microns (or it&#039;s a multiple of something for manufacturing). The mesh pattern seems like it&#039;s protecting the chip from fat-fingering a probe or a some accidental shorting. It looks easier, although I sure wouldn&#039;t call it easy.

I sure would hate to deal with all the extra wiring capacitance in the Infineon... just three layers of metal to work with, and all having high capacitance.

What happens when the Infineon chip starts up with a bad mesh? Does it act like a dead chip, or just allow a debug mode to confirm the chip is dead?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find it interesting that Infineon invested in a higher density top metal as a way to increase security. They&#8217;re really going after a very small separation between tracks at about 0.4 microns. I&#8217;ll bet the width of the wires is triple the space to make it more difficult to see between the wires. How easy is it to tell which wire belongs to which net? Are the wires regularly toggled, like with a random sequence?</p>
<p>The ST top metal I&#8217;m guessing has a pitch of about 1.4 microns (or it&#8217;s a multiple of something for manufacturing). The mesh pattern seems like it&#8217;s protecting the chip from fat-fingering a probe or a some accidental shorting. It looks easier, although I sure wouldn&#8217;t call it easy.</p>
<p>I sure would hate to deal with all the extra wiring capacitance in the Infineon&#8230; just three layers of metal to work with, and all having high capacitance.</p>
<p>What happens when the Infineon chip starts up with a bad mesh? Does it act like a dead chip, or just allow a debug mode to confirm the chip is dead?</p>
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		<title>By: McAfee Security Insights Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; TPM &#8220;Undressed..&#8221;</title>
		<link>http://www.flylogic.net/blog/?p=86&#038;cpage=1#comment-1608</link>
		<dc:creator>McAfee Security Insights Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; TPM &#8220;Undressed..&#8221;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 00:46:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.flylogic.net/blog/?p=86#comment-1608</guid>
		<description>[...] to dissolve first the outer casing of the chip, then the wire grid tamper-proofing shields inside (http://www.flylogic.net/blog/?p=86). Once &#8220;undressed&#8221; he was able to probe and monitor what was going on inside [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] to dissolve first the outer casing of the chip, then the wire grid tamper-proofing shields inside (<a href="http://www.flylogic.net/blog/?p=86" rel="nofollow">http://www.flylogic.net/blog/?p=86</a>). Once &#8220;undressed&#8221; he was able to probe and monitor what was going on inside [...]</p>
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		<title>By: TPM &#8220;Undressed..&#8221; &#171; Simon Says &#8211; Musings of a Mid-Tier CTO</title>
		<link>http://www.flylogic.net/blog/?p=86&#038;cpage=1#comment-1607</link>
		<dc:creator>TPM &#8220;Undressed..&#8221; &#171; Simon Says &#8211; Musings of a Mid-Tier CTO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:44:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.flylogic.net/blog/?p=86#comment-1607</guid>
		<description>[...] acids and rust-remover solutions to dissolve first the outer casing of the chip, then the wire grid tamper-proofing shields [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] acids and rust-remover solutions to dissolve first the outer casing of the chip, then the wire grid tamper-proofing shields [...]</p>
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		<title>By: dogbert</title>
		<link>http://www.flylogic.net/blog/?p=86&#038;cpage=1#comment-1606</link>
		<dc:creator>dogbert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:53:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.flylogic.net/blog/?p=86#comment-1606</guid>
		<description>security-wise, the ST mesh should be much easier to bypass - this should be easily achievable with two needle probes. you can even remove parts of the gnd line and put down larger metal contacts or permanently bypass the entire mesh by putting down a wire defined by burnback photolitography, metal deposition + liftoff on one edge of the chip.. and if there is just one wire covering the entire chip, you are free to do whatever you want with the chip once it&#039;s shorted on an edge.

that being said, it&#039;s probably a good idea to implement a verification step by means of signal delay / resistance measurements on a grid with MUX&#039;d/DEMUX&#039;d wires.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>security-wise, the ST mesh should be much easier to bypass &#8211; this should be easily achievable with two needle probes. you can even remove parts of the gnd line and put down larger metal contacts or permanently bypass the entire mesh by putting down a wire defined by burnback photolitography, metal deposition + liftoff on one edge of the chip.. and if there is just one wire covering the entire chip, you are free to do whatever you want with the chip once it&#8217;s shorted on an edge.</p>
<p>that being said, it&#8217;s probably a good idea to implement a verification step by means of signal delay / resistance measurements on a grid with MUX&#8217;d/DEMUX&#8217;d wires.</p>
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